New Delhi [India]: Ahead of the G20 Summit in the national capital, External Affairs Minister S Jaishankar in a wide-ranging interview with media spoke about the importance of hosting the international summit and the fact that India was the voice of the Global South on the high table of international diplomacy.
The full transcript follows.
ANI: Thank you Minister Jaishankar for speaking to ANI on the G20 issue. I will begin with asking you about the G20 having the 20 largest economies, so will the New Delhi meeting reposition the Finance Infrastructure frameworks to stimulate global growth. Or like in the past, is it going to be for the growth of just a few?
EAM S JAISHANKAR: Well first good to talk to you and as you can see this is like the home stretch, everything is getting ready. The negotiators are negotiating, the people who are trying to get the arrangements done are working at it. So, it is really at this moment a very focused time for us. But still, I think its important people have a sense of what is going on and my reading right now of the G20 is that there are a whole lot of issues.
Some are longer term structural issue, meaning that they have been discussed before including an earlier G20 summits. Some are more emergent. There are issues of the last year, maybe the last 2-3 years which have again come to head whose stress impact on countries is very high. So, you are going to get really a mix of issues that the world is looking at and a lot of this, the burden is on the Global South, on developing countries. So, one very important message for us is focus on the Global South. But there is a larger context.
The context is of a very turbulent global environment, the impact of the COVID impact of the Ukraine conflict. Issues like debt which have carried on for some time and by the way climate disruptions which are today affecting the economy as well.
ANI: I will come to Global South because you spoke about that post BRICS also. I will come on that. But first I would like to ask about whether the fact that President Putin and President Xi are not going to be present at the New Delhi meet has that cast a shadow on the summit?
EAM S JAISHANKAR: Not really. I mean, look. I think, at different points of time in G-20 there have been some presidents or Prime Ministers who for whatever reason, have chosen not to come themselves but that country, and that country’s position is obviously reflected by whoever is the representative on that occasion. So, you had some occasions where you had a president or two, sometimes three who have not themselves come. But I do think, my sense from talking to the ministers, certainly, and I know the Sherpas are in touch with each other. They are right now trying to hammer out the final document. I think everybody is coming with a great deal of seriousness.
ANI: Will it have an impact on the outcome of the meet?
EAM S JAISHANKAR: I would put it this way, the issues are there these are not issues that are this morning being taken up. I mean there is a whole gestation period of eight-nine months, where at different levels ministers or officials have tried to progress an issue. So, this is like a culmination you know, that is what this is really about. There are really about 16-18 processes which are all coming together to be stitched up together to produce a summit.
ANI: So, Russia and China not really miffed with India. And is that? The reason?
EAM S JAISHANKAR: No, no. I do not think it has anything to do with India. I think whatever decision they make. I mean they would know best. But I would not at all see it the way you would suggest.
ANI: And it is not going to have an impact on the declaration? The declaration itself is a complicated procedure to arrive at a consensus, to have a declaration, so are we moving towards it? Are the countries moving towards that?
EAM S JAISHANKAR: Well, we are negotiating right now as I said the negotiation is not… The clock did not start ticking yesterday. The clock has been ticking for some time, so typically what happens is there is a ministerial meeting. Then a ministerial meeting produces outcomes. I will give you an example. I chaired the Development Ministers meeting.
So, when we did the Development minister’s meeting, all 20 countries agreed that there should be an action plan to speed up the Sustainable Development Goals Achievement, all 20 countries agreed that we should have high principles for environmentally friendly lifestyle. So now if these have been already approved either they get attached or some part of it, or in some summary form comes into the document.
So, everyone, the labour, the education…. The finance is a very, very important track, that is a very crucial track because in a way that is where the whole thing began, the G20 exercise began. So, every track feeds in outcomes. Some of them have multiple meetings like finance. Some of them have single meeting so these outcomes are melded together and they produce a composite document. In addition, there are things which may be discussed among the Sherpas or the leaders may also discuss some things among themselves.
ANI: These meetings have been going on since the beginning of this year. But is there a consensus building and what will India see, As the host what will India see as a win-win situation.?
EAM S JAISHANKAR: Well, I do not think it is just a matter of India seeing something. Today the expectations of the world are very high in terms of what the G20 is able to produce, and produce in terms of meeting the challenges of the world. So, if you were to go to Africa, we go to Latin America, go to parts of Asia, go to the Caribbean, and go to the Pacific.
Everybody is today saying, okay. I have a certain set of issues. You know. I have a debt problem, I have a trade problem, I have a health access problem, I have a green development resourcing problem. So, what will the G20 do for me? So, the world is waiting.
Today I see it more for India as a responsibility, that we have the responsibility today in a very difficult world. It is difficult in terms of the COVID impact, difficult in terms of the conflict impact, in terms of the climate impact, in terms of debt, that is one part of it, but it is also difficult politically. There is a very sharp north-south divide. There is an even sharper east-west polarization. So how do you bring people together? How do you find common ground. How do you make everybody understand that we all have a bigger responsibility and therefore please, can we kind of get our act together here and do what is right by the world
ANI: As a former diplomat and now as an External Affairs minister. I guess that is right up your alley to find common ground.
EAM S JAISHANKAR: Well, everybody has worked and is working on it there. Every minister, we have about 15 ministerial tracks. Every minister has put in the best the Sherpa and his team have worked and are working very hard. So, it’s a collective effort.
ANI: You’ve just come back from BRICS. You are heading for the ASEAN summit, East Asia Summit and then is the G20. It is a packed schedule. You spoke about the Global South. You spoke about the divide between the East and West, between the North and South and trying to find common ground. Do these countries see India as a voice? You said, represent the Global South. Do these countries who are participating in these fora, do they see India as a credible voice within the fora?
EAM S JAISHANKAR: The Global South countries?
ANI: Yes.
EAM S JAISHANKAR: I mean. I would certainly hope so for this reason. There have been G-20 summits before no other G-20 presidency has made an effort to get together the developing countries who are not on the table and say–please come, sit with us, tell us what are your concerns. And we will distil those concerns and place it before the G-20. That is a very unique exercise. Nobody has done it before. So, if we have taken the trouble and we meaning the Prime Minister Modi himself. If 125 countries that have been consulted feel today, yes, what we told India.
India has promised us that they will put that issue on the table. I think they have a lot of expectation of India and as far as the rest of the G20 is concerned, they know that look, we have always in G20. Outside the G20. India has a reputation of being a very constructive player. Someone who bridges, divides, who kind of somewhere helps to fix problems. So, there is a lot of goodwill that we have. And again, I stress to you. I’ am confident that every one of the G20 coming to Delhi will understand the responsibility that they bear will understand today that the other 180 countries of the world are looking to them to set directions and that they cannot afford to fail them?
ANI: Do these countries at any point of time feel that India has shifted its position is leaning more towards the US than it used to. I know I sound like a dinosaur, but let me harp back on the Non-align Movement period when we were considered absolutely not leaning and if at all, leaning then more towards the Soviet bloc, the former Soviet bloc, do they see us leaning more towards the US now?
EAM S JAISHANKAR: No. I hate to confirm to you that you are being old-fashioned that it is really, I think, very anachronistic way of looking at the world today. I think a lot of countries identify with India as a developing country. A lot of countries identify with India as a democracy. Many identify with India saying Okay, it is a pluralistic country. We see many institutional cultural similarities, so different people in the world identify with us. But do understand this point. G-20 is not the arena for power politics. I accept and I am very, very conscious that diplomacy and international relations is a very competitive exercise.
But even in diplomacy, there are occasions when you are competitive there are occasions when you are cooperative. G-20 is very much a collaborative forum. It is, even countries who differ profoundly on many other issues, but their history, if you look at it in G-20 is to find something which brings them together. So, we are trying to develop an agenda that if you look at resources for green development for example, if you look at dealing with sustainable growth, if you are looking at plastics, if you are looking at biofuels, if you are looking at educational access, at nutrition. These should not be and I do not think these are political issues. So, what India’s strategic calculations and adjustments may be. I think it is a different subject.
ANI: I have covered G20 earlier and whenever there is a summit meeting, the presence of the American President kind of overshadows the other heads of state and it can be something very small like the cavalcade going. And then everybody is made to wait for the US resident to go forward. So, do you think that the fact that President Biden is going to be here for three days in India is that going to impact on the other countries feeling that India as a host country is again paying too much attention?
EAM S JAISHANKAR: No look. I just think you are going on a wrong track here. I think you will see that everybody will come in smoothly. Nobody will have to wait for anybody else. The G-20 is a collective exercise. We will deal with it in that. Look, we are India. You know we are India. We know how to handle the world. Believe me, especially in the last ten years we have shown how we can handle the world.
ANI: I will also ask you whether we were talking about the declaration and the Russian Foreign Minister was pretty belligerent, saying that they wanted their view on the Ukraine crisis to be included in the declaration. Don’t you see that that muscle flexing has begun even before the summit.
EAM S JAISHANKAR: Well, that may be the way you would characterize it. I mean, for me, anybody would try to put across their national position, try to maximize their negotiating position if you would. I think you should wait and see what actually happens in the negotiation, not prejudge it purely in terms of what may be said on one occasion. And what the media interpretation of what was said on one occasion.
ANI: President Biden’s visit. What on the bilateral level, what is going to be on the table? If you could tell us because there’s talk about nuclear reactors vis are issues coming up? What could be on the agenda?
EAM S JAISHANKAR: Well, we have had a very strong state visit by the Prime Minister to the United State. Strong in terms of the outcomes and the results of that visit. So, my understanding is right now. Both systems, the Indian system and the American system is busy working that through and trying to implement a lot of what was agreed to in June this year. So, I think this would give an occasion for the leaders to take stock.
ANI: Post-covid and post-Ukraine conflict. Foreign policy analysts feel that there is this arc of cooperation and arc of alliance between Russia and China and that influences most for us. Whether it was at the BRICS, you heard about depolarization and stuff like that coming out and do you think that that will cast a shadow on all these international meets?
EAM S JAISHANKAR: No look. I think often arguments can be overstated, sometimes deliberately, so for a purpose. Since you refer to BRICS. Let me give you the example of BRICS. We had the five BRICS members a perfectly congenial, obviously a very detailed exchange about how to take BRICS forward, which membership expansion was one. And even when you speak about currency frankly, a lot of the focus was really about how to use our national currencies, which many of us want to do and are capable of doing today. We may not have been in that situation a decade ago.
So, I would say do not see the world very starkly in terms of black and white and this camp and that camp. I am not saying that countries do not have their partialities and their relationships they do. But I think the world is a much more nuanced place. It is much more multipolar, there many more variables. A large part even say again in BRICS would have been, what are the views of South Africa? What does the Brazil think? Where is India going? And then you find some kind of landing point? I mean if we look even at last year’s BRICS. I mean there were a whole lot of countries. You can broadly call them countries in the middle and Indonesia and India, a Turkey, or South Africa. Brazil. Saudi Arabia who all had their views and did what they could really to arrive at a consensus.
ANI: To what do you attribute this change where you saying that there is multipolar and they finding a voice to speak in spite. And it’s not stark like what you’re saying.
EAM S JAISHANKAR: Because I think over the last many years, especially maybe over the last decade, perhaps a little bit more. The relative economic weight of countries has changed, the relative political confidence of countries has changed, the relationships especially of the Major Powers and the Middle Powers has changed. So, if you looked at it earlier on it was like very tight groupings and let us say, particularly in the Western world, a very strong alliance structure.
Today I think the world architecture has opened out very much more, so you have many more independent countries. They could be independent at a global level or a regional level, or even in the neighbourhood level. I think the world is changing and the G-20 itself is actually the best statement of it. That what there was a time after all we left everything to the G-summit.
The fact that you have G-20. I mean, G20 is today seen as the premier global forum. After all, just think in the last year. Compare the G-20 meeting to anything else which has happened, a NATO meeting I don’t know SEO meeting or BRICS meeting or QUAD meeting a UN meeting. Nothing has evoked the kind of attention and focus that a G-20 meeting has because the world recognizes today that this gathering has a very exceptional importance.
ANI: Is that the reason or is it because you have made it into such a big thing? I mean, everybody is talking about it. Even the Indian opposition says that earlier the summit meetings used to be done in a very quiet manner, a very classy manner in Vigyan Bhavan in Lutyens Delhi. And now the BJP has made this into this big thing, not sticking to one city going to several cities whose plan was this? Did you take other G-20 nations into confidence?
EAM S JAISHANKAR: If somebody felt that they were most comfortable in Lutyens Delhi or completely comfortable in Vigyan Bhavan, that is their prerogative, that was their world. So yes, you have had summit meetings where the impact of the country probably went two kilometres on a good day out of Vigyan Bhavan. This is a different government. It is a different era. It is a different thought process.
The Prime Minister felt, and all of us have worked in that direction, that the G20 is something which should be treated as a national endeavour, that different parts of India must have a sense of participation. And this is something which has been truly, I would say, nonpartisan if you look actually at the G20 events. A lot of it were held in states which are not ruled by BJP governments.
They are ruled by governments of the opposition. So, and you can see the result mean to me. One of the big pluses of the G20 is really how much more interested the people of India, especially the young people of India have got foreign policy and they need it because look, this is a globalized Era. This is an era where the opportunities can be very global, where the problems also, as we saw during COVID, can be global.
So, we need to, as part of the transformation of India, we need to create a global awareness in this country. And I think the G20 has been very, very helpful in it and for those who feel that we should be stuck in 1983. I mean please, you are welcome to be stuck in 1983. I am sorry the country has moved on. We are in 2023.
ANI: This people’s participation which has become really the hallmark of this G20. I have been to the Bali meet which was restricted. I have been to the G20 in London too it was not like this. This has become a people’s movement and that is also the hallmark of the foreign policy initiatives that your government has taken is taking it out of the corridors of
Ministry of External Affairs to the people demystifying foreign policy to a large extent. Is that a political need? Is that something that your government decided to do? What is why did you take G-twenty out?
EAM S JAISHANKAR: You know two reasons. One, I think it is fundamentally a mindset. It’s a mindset of the Prime Minister, it’s a mindset of the BJP, it’s a mindset of the government. And the mindset is a more democratic mindset, a mindset where you feel it should not be a small clique in one city which controls everything. So, it is by me for me about me, which we felt was the way it has happened in the past.
So, and in that sense, the whole idea is to democratise the G20 to make it much more participate, to give different cities, different states, different professions and generations, a sense of participation and ownership. So, one part and this is not restricted to the G20. It is a larger mindset. I mean, it could be in terms of today how you elect or select your political leaders. It could be about how economic benefits and social benefits are given. It could be about educational access, health access. I think the country in the last ten years has become much more democratized that it isn’t in the capital, it isn’t only in the metropolitan cities, it isn’t only even in the big cities. You’ve taken it out. You have taken out anything good which has happened in this country has been taken out to the entirety of this country.
So that is one reason. The other reason is what I told you, which is it is absolutely essential that today’s India must develop sharper global awareness. Global awareness because we do see when Prime Minister speaks about Amrit Kaal, that we have these 25 years where enormous possibilities are there before us. But those possibilities are realizable only when you understand the world.
ANI: So, India is occupying a prominent pace at high tables. Whether it was at BRICS, you’re going to Jakarta, for the East Asia Summit and then at G20. By doing this were discussing issues for global issues, what matters to countries of the South and everywhere.
But the opposition says that you have lost focus on our neighbourhood even though you have a neighbourhood first. Policy relations with Pakistan has taken a downturn. China, you yourself said we have abnormal relations has focused shifted by us looking at the big picture.
EAM S JAISHANKAR: So why don’t you ask people in Sri Lanka? What do they think about the neighbourhood? Why don’t you ask people in Bangladesh? Why don’t you ask people in Bhutan and Nepal? Do they feel that today, India is doing more? Is India more reliable? Is India more relevant? You will get a very different answer now if somebody says that the sign, the proof of a good foreign policy is to carry on with Pakistan as though a big terrorist strike hasn’t happened. And that’s par for the course, then I’m sorry they have a different worldview. That’s not the kind of neighbourhood first policy that we are running.
ANI: At the G20 will you be speaking about the neighbourhood too?
EAM S JAISHANKAR: No, the G20 is about global outlook. Do understand the G20 is not an international peace and security forum. The G20 is about global growth and development, so we will be taking a global view.
ANI: Now the latest issue about G20 is the invitation card which says Bharat and not India. Now that is the latest thing, that is G20 going to reposition India as Bharat?
EAM S JAISHANKAR: India is Bharat, it is there in the constitution. Please I would invite everybody to read It.
ANI: So, it’s not something which is new, it is something which existed in the Constitution, and so do it’s not a new roll of dice.
EAM S JAISHANKAR: No look. I think when you say Bharat in a sense, a meaning and understanding and a connotation that comes with it and that is reflected in our Constitution as well.
ANI: So, in conclusion. I just want to ask you in one of the interviews recently, you said that when the Chandrayaan happened and you were in Johannesburg, there are people who came to the Prime Minister and said that what India has achieved is like our achievement too. So why do you think that that happened?
EAM S JAISHANKAR: I would say it happened partly because we are able to evoke a very strong sense of global solidarity. That the feeling is in many ways that people empathize with us, they feel okay. If we are doing well somewhere, it gives them satisfaction. They feel that connect with us. Why do they feel that connect with us? Maybe it is also our record.
It was multiple leaders because in fact. I remember saying in public that Prime Minister actually had to walk the entire room because everybody stood up and wanted to shake hands with him and to congratulate him. But part of it is also if you look at the last ten years.
People see that, it could be COVID, It could be–as in the case of Sri-Lanka their economic distress. It could be what happened when natural disasters–that sense today that here is a country with a large heart which is willing to put its capabilities forward. And I would say today the fact that we have got the right balance between national interest and international responsibilities. That is one of the successes I would say of our foreign policy that how do you actually get both? And the neighbourhood is a very good example. That is a good example of our national interest. But it is also a very good example of how our neighbours have benefited from the prosperity and the capability of.
ANI: I hope I can interview you before the general elections, but just in conclusion. Tell me usually just before general election, the year before general elections, foreign policy goes to the back burner and everybody just kind of relaxes in the Ministry of External Affairs. But you are hosting the G20y. You’re going for the East Asia Summit. You’ve just done BRICS.
The Prime Minister doesn’t seem to be putting foreign policy on the back burner and even a US presidential visit before their election. That itself is something which is not. We’ve not seen that before, usually they just like it becomes domestic issues, always, isn’t it?
EAM S JAISHANKAR: So that is the point I’ve been trying to get across you. It is a different world. It’s a different India. It is a different prime Minister. It is a different government. And that’s why you have all that you say you haven’t seen in the past.
ANI: Right, thank you so much for your time and wishing you all the best for the G-20
EAM S JAISHANKAR: Thank you pleasure as always.
